Probably buying base MacBook Pro 14"

I'm currently deciding whether I want to get a new gaming PC or a new MacBook Pro 14". The thing is, I really don't game much at all so I'm not sure why I am considering a new gaming PC but it would also be used a bit for work. Also, note that I returned the MacBook not because I didn't like it but because of the new M3 chips being released just after I got it. Now that it is returned, I wanted to "properly" think over if I need a new desktop gaming PC that will probably very rarely be used for gaming or a MacBook Pro 14".
 
Quiz said:
I'm currently deciding whether I want to get a new gaming PC or a new MacBook Pro 14". The thing is, I really don't game much at all so I'm not sure why I am considering a new gaming PC but it would also be used a bit for work. Also, note that I returned the MacBook not because I didn't like it but because of the new M3 chips being released just after I got it. Now that it is returned, I wanted to "properly" think over if I need a new desktop gaming PC that will probably very rarely be used for gaming or a MacBook Pro 14".
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Calculate the cost per gaming hour. If you buy an expensive PC that loses value rapidly and game very little you can come to impressively high prices per hour.
 
If I get a MacBook Pro 14", is there any point in spec'ing up the base M3 Pro model that has 18 GB RAM and a 512 GB SSD to the "full" M3 Pro chip, 36 GB RAM, and 1 TB SSD if all I am going to be doing is Internet browsing, Microsoft Office type of work, steaming movies and music, etc.? I know it probably won't make any difference now but what about in 5 years time? Will both models be equally as smooth and responsive?
 
Quiz said:
If I get a MacBook Pro 14", is there any point in spec'ing up the base M3 Pro model that has 18 GB RAM and a 512 GB SSD to the "full" M3 Pro chip, 36 GB RAM, and 1 TB SSD if all I am going to be doing is Internet browsing, Microsoft Office type of work, steaming movies and music, etc.? I know it probably won't make any difference now but what about in 5 years time? Will both models be equally as smooth and responsive?
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My opinion - No. Because at that point you can pay only $400 more to get the same with the M3 Max. You'd be silly not to just get the M3 Max for only $400 more at that point, and the Max chip is a massive performance gain on the GPU side.
 
Mchart said:
My opinion - No. Because at that point you can pay only $400 more to get the same with the M3 Max. You'd be silly not to just get the M3 Max for only $400 more at that point, and the Max chip is a massive performance gain on the GPU side.
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But for my use case, will getting a higher spec MacBook Pro (over the base M3 Pro model) be worth it even if I keep it for 5 years?
 
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Quiz said:
But for my use case, will getting a higher spec MacBook Pro (over the base M3 Pro model) be worth it even if I keep it for 5 years?
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Unless some magic happens and web browsers become a lot more multithreaded the 8 cores in the base M3 will still be equally fast as the M3 Max for your workloads in 5 years.

Having said that, for those who need cores the Max is indeed surprisingly fair priced and a worth upgrade.
 
uOpt said:
Unless some magic happens and web browsers become a lot more multithreaded the 8 cores in the base M3 will still be equally fast as the M3 Max for your workloads in 5 years.

Having said that, for those who need cores the Max is indeed surprisingly fair priced and a worth upgrade.
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Thanks.

Is 18 GB RAM a safe bet for my workload even in 5 years?
 
Quiz said:
Thanks.

Is 18 GB RAM a safe bet for my workload even in 5 years?
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That depends on how many tabs you have open and on your browser. I can fill 40 GB RAM on my 64 GB Mac with Chrome in a day.

If web pages get much fatter in the next 5 years (containing nested virtual Linux machines 5 levels deep or whereever they are headed...) I can imagine you can knock out 16 GB with a few dozen tabs open.
 
uOpt said:
That depends on how many tabs you have open and on your browser. I can fill 40 GB RAM on my 64 GB Mac with Chrome in a day.

If web pages get much fatter in the next 5 years (containing nested virtual Linux machines 5 levels deep or whereever they are headed...) I can imagine you can knock out 16 GB with a few dozen tabs open.
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I don't think I ever have more than 5 tabs open. Usually it's always just 1 tab.
 
No one can tell you. There is no telling if that will remain relevant or not. Ultimately, i'd choose between either the base one or the base max. As soon as you start adding options you're losing value, because the options are where Apple is making the overhead/money.
 
Question about RAM usage on macOS:

I had 16 GB RAM in my MacBook. With just 3 or so tabs open in Safari and some light apps like Mail and Discord, RAM usage was around 10 GB. Is this right? However, while the RAM usage was around 10 GB, the Memory Pressure graph was still very low and in the green zone. On my Windows 10 desktop PC with 16 GB RAM, I have to open MANY apps to get it to go up to 10 GB RAM usage.

Also, on my MacBook, after a fresh boot, RAM usage would be around 5 GB with nothing open. On my Windows 10 PC, after a fresh boot, RAM usage is around 2.8-3 GB. After I open my daily apps and start running them in the background (like Steam, Discord, etc.), RAM usage settles at around 5 GB (which is the same amount as macOS after a fresh boot and nothing open).

Does macOS handle RAM differently than Windows or is Windows just "lighter" on RAM than macOS?
 
Quiz said:
Question about RAM usage on macOS:

I had 16 GB RAM in my MacBook. With just 3 or so tabs open in Safari and some light apps like Mail and Discord, RAM usage was around 10 GB. Is this right? However, while the RAM usage was around 10 GB, the Memory Pressure graph was still very low and in the green zone. On my Windows 10 desktop PC with 16 GB RAM, I have to open MANY apps to get it to go up to 10 GB RAM usage.

Also, on my MacBook, after a fresh boot, RAM usage would be around 5 GB with nothing open. On my Windows 10 PC, after a fresh boot, RAM usage is around 2.8-3 GB. After I open my daily apps and start running them in the background (like Steam, Discord, etc.), RAM usage settles at around 5 GB (which is the same amount as macOS after a fresh boot and nothing open).

Does macOS handle RAM differently than Windows or is Windows just "lighter" on RAM than macOS?
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All OSes use free RAM for various purposes such as filesystem buffer cache and pre-zeroing pages for application requests.

You cannot use the amount of free memory as an indicator for how much memory you actually need.
 
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What keyboard is this guy using with his MacBook? Seems to be a Mac-orientated keyboard since it has a Command key. You can see it at 1:25.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NY5yrCTJFE
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I basically do all of this stuff.

And yes, the Keyboard is 100% a Keychron. Which one? I don't know, they all use the same color schemes though. The differences on keyboards from there come down to how many keys, and whether full height or low profile. And then to a certain degree switch options. I would say they make good "entry level" mechanical keyboards (if you want cheap, reasonable quality, and 'okay' switches). At some point in the future I'll make a 100% custom keyboard. But that's $250+ investment and it's not that pressing.

I'll note though that I have been unsatisfied with all keyboards because they don't go full Mac. They don't have 4 buttons to the left of the Spacebar. They are all missing the 'fn' key So the only remedies are getting really expensive custom keyboards, be stuck using Apple's keyboard, or getting a programmable keyboard and replacing one of the other 3 keys with the fn key. You can sort of blame Apple for this because obviously this keyboard arrangement is only used by them. But you can also blame keyboard manufacturers because they claim to be "for Mac" while not imitating Apple's (non-standard) layout. This is a personal beef of mine. So you won't find that any main line manufacturer like Drop, Logitech, Keychron, etc will have Apple's layout. Regardless of price point.
 
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UnknownSouljer, is a Mac the only computer you have and use or do you also have a (gaming) PC or some other Windows computer?
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I’ve been exclusively Mac for about 12 years. Since around 2010. My first Mac I got in 2008.
I’ll note that up until 2 weeks ago I was using an Intel based Mac and an egpu. At various times I have dual booted Windows to play games. But honestly I haven't really been a gamer in all but a few very specific games for at least as long as I’ve been on Mac, but really longer.

The kinds of games I do play tend to already be on Mac or are otherwise few and far between. I’ll say that to me there is only a game worth playing probably once every 2 years if not longer. I have zero interest in basically all games made from any of the large gaming corporations like Microsoft, Activision, Ubisoft, Epic, etc.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
I’ve been exclusively Mac for about 12 years. Since around 2010. My first Mac I got in 2008.
I’ll note that up until 2 weeks ago I was using an Intel based Mac and an egpu. At various times I have dual booted Windows to play games. But honestly I haven't really been a gamer in all but a few very specific games for at least as long as I’ve been on Mac, but really longer.

The kinds of games I do play tend to already be on Mac or are otherwise few and far between. I’ll say that to me there is only a game worth playing probably once every 2 years if not longer. I have zero interest in basically all games made from any of the large gaming corporations like Microsoft, Activision, Ubisoft, Epic, etc.
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Do you find the 14" screen on your new MacBook Pro to be acceptable when it's your only computer? I have a 27" 1440p monitor with my desktop PC. Going from a 27" screen down to a 14" screen is quite the change. However, note that what I saw with the screen of the MacBook Pro 14" before I returned it blew away my 27" monitor in terms of picture quality though.
 
My work laptop is the 16" that I occasionally run without an external monitor. Frankly, I wouldn't go smaller if you plan on spending a significant amount of time away from an external but I've had eye surgeries and that could be my bias.

My personal laptop (ASUS AMD 16") I always use on my lap and I wouldn't go smaller.
 
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Do you find the 14" screen on your new MacBook Pro to be acceptable when it's your only computer?
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Yes. For when I'm using my laptop as a laptop. Otherwise I do have other displays.
Quiz said:
I have a 27" 1440p monitor with my desktop PC. Going from a 27" screen down to a 14" screen is quite the change. However, note that what I saw with the screen of the MacBook Pro 14" before I returned it blew away my 27" monitor in terms of picture quality though.
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I kind of don't understand the question. Not in a literal sense, but in the figurative one.

If you're at your desk at home, what is preventing you from using the larger display or other peripherals if you'd like to use them?

EDIT: I will say there is a fairly large subset of "laptop only users" and they've figured this out regardless of PC or Mac via using things like docks/hubs, etc. Or in certain cases, a USB-C to their monitor instead of DP/HDMI which then acts as a dock/hub.
A significant advantage that every Mac has that fewer PC's have is access to Thunderbolt docks, like you inquired about before. You can simply put the laptop on your desk, plug-in one connector (Thunderbolt), and then be reconnected to all your peripherals including display(s).
 
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It seems the M3 Max chip is a better value than the M3 Pro chip considering the performance you get for the money. Is the "full" M3 Max chip with 48 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD worth it over the base model M3 Max chip with 36 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD? Based on my use case, definitely not but still wanted to hear what you guys say.
 
Quiz said:
It seems the M3 Max chip is a better value than the M3 Pro chip considering the performance you get for the money. Is the "full" M3 Max chip with 48 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD worth it over the base model M3 Max chip with 36 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD? Based on my use case, definitely not but still wanted to hear what you guys say.
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Generally hasn't been historically, mostly due to thermals. However, it's only an $300, but if you already don't think you can really make use of the base Max, it doesn't make sense. At least by going with the base Max you are getting substantially better GPU and a little more longevity.

For me, it's already so much money that an extra $300 for the best chip isn't that big of a deal. Again, it's the storage & memory upgrades that Apple is really making money off of.
 
Quiz said:
It seems the M3 Max chip is a better value than the M3 Pro chip considering the performance you get for the money. Is the "full" M3 Max chip with 48 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD worth it over the base model M3 Max chip with 36 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD? Based on my use case, definitely not but still wanted to hear what you guys say.
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Definitely worth it. I think the Max chip upgrade is surprisingly cheap by Apple standards.

Of course if you never use the additional cores it is still a waste of money and battery. The M3 plain is bad because of the limited Thunderbolt and external display capabilities.
 
Quiz said:
Question about RAM usage on macOS:

I had 16 GB RAM in my MacBook. With just 3 or so tabs open in Safari and some light apps like Mail and Discord, RAM usage was around 10 GB. Is this right? However, while the RAM usage was around 10 GB, the Memory Pressure graph was still very low and in the green zone. On my Windows 10 desktop PC with 16 GB RAM, I have to open MANY apps to get it to go up to 10 GB RAM usage.

Also, on my MacBook, after a fresh boot, RAM usage would be around 5 GB with nothing open. On my Windows 10 PC, after a fresh boot, RAM usage is around 2.8-3 GB. After I open my daily apps and start running them in the background (like Steam, Discord, etc.), RAM usage settles at around 5 GB (which is the same amount as macOS after a fresh boot and nothing open).

Does macOS handle RAM differently than Windows or is Windows just "lighter" on RAM than macOS?
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Mac ram usage isn't any differen than on windows, it depends entirely on what you're running. If you use a ton of browsers and a million tabs like me then they both use a ton of ram lol. For example I have 16GB on my personal MBP and it's using 13,6GB, work M1 Pro has 32 using 21,4GB and my work windows pc (10) has 32 and is using 23,9GB but has by far the most stuff open.

Quiz said:
In Chrome on Windows, if you middle-click on a link it opens the link in a new tab. Can you do something similar on macOS with Safari when using a Magic Mouse (or even a non-Apple mouse) without having to press Command before clicking on a link?
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Safari just isn't user friendly, it doesn't have support for back and forward mouse buttons either but every other browser on mac os does. (I am using monterey still on my MBP and don't use safari on my work laptop so perhaps they added it but I doubt it)

Also for me, I hate the native way mac os treats scrolling (it has acceleration) so I use mos to fix it. There are other programs too as well that do the same thing it was just the first one I tried and it worked. It doesn't mess with the touchpad either if that is a worry.
 
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Quiz said:
It seems the M3 Max chip is a better value than the M3 Pro chip considering the performance you get for the money. Is the "full" M3 Max chip with 48 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD worth it over the base model M3 Max chip with 36 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD? Based on my use case, definitely not but still wanted to hear what you guys say.
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It's dependent on what you are intending to do with the machine.

If I asked you if you should buy a 4090 and a 14900k for a grandma that's just going to watching cooking videos on Youtube and use Facebook, what would you say? No one can determine whether something is "worth it" to you or not, especially without knowing what you intend on doing with it.

If you intend this to be a work machine and you're going to do any form of compiling, rendering, graphical modeling that uses a lot of GPU memory - then yes. If you're just going to use this to browse the internet and watch videos on and do the odd office task, then no.
D-EJ915 said:
Mac ram usage isn't any differen than on windows, it depends entirely on what you're running. If you use a ton of browsers and a million tabs like me then they both use a ton of ram lol. For example I have 16GB on my personal MBP and it's using 13,6GB, work M1 Pro has 32 using 21,4GB and my work windows pc (10) has 32 and is using 23,9GB but has by far the most stuff open.
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A fairly large difference is the single pool for both the GPU and the system. Theoretically 99% of the time that should just be benefit, because the data doesn't haven't to be duplicated on system RAM and GPU RAM.
I've also mentioned this elsewhere, but if you wanted to work on any form of model that requires more RAM than a 4090 has, then theoretically Macs allow for models that aren't possible unless you're buying a significantly more expensive PC. With up to 128GB of RAM getting shared with the video card, that is a very unique benefit that doesn't exist on PC.
D-EJ915 said:
Safari just isn't user friendly, it doesn't have support for back and forward mouse buttons either but every other browser on mac os does. (I am using monterey still on my MBP and don't use safari on my work laptop so perhaps they added it but I doubt it)
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As far back as I can remember I've been using the back/forward buttons on my Logitech mice. It for sure exists in Sonoma which I'm on now. To me it's kind of immaterial though as Firefox simply allows for many more extensions which I find critical for privacy and ad-blocking.
 
Which color do you guys think looks better? Space Black or Silver? My M2 Pro was Space Gray and liked the contrast between the keyboard the laptop body. With Space Black, everything is blacked out. Gives it a "meaner" and more "sporty" look but there is less contrast between the keyboard and laptop body.
 
Is it true Macs hold their value better than PC desktops and laptops?
 
Looking at the benchmarks and gaming performance of the full M3 Max chip in both the 14" and 16" in the following video (starts at 6:20), it seems the 14" didn't quite match the scores of the 16" even though both had the full M3 Max chip. This is probably because of thermals and cooling performance (which you can see at 10:23). My question is, is then worth getting the full M3 Max chip in the 14" if it is likely to throttle sooner and not reach the performance scores when in the 16"?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0sVCUWJ6VU
 
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Quiz said:
Looking at the benchmarks and gaming performance of the full M3 Max chip in both the 14" and 16" in the following video (starts at 6:20), it seems the 14" didn't quite match the scores of the 16" even though both had the full M3 Max chip. This is probably because of thermals and cooling performance. My question is, is then worth getting the full M3 Max chip in the 14" if it is likely to throttle sooner and not reach the performance scores when in the 16"?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0sVCUWJ6VU
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Hmmm. I would want a second opinion on that.

Also there are two "full max" chips, the 14 core and the 16 core.
 
Quiz said:
Looking at the benchmarks and gaming performance of the full M3 Max chip in both the 14" and 16" in the following video (starts at 6:20), it seems the 14" didn't quite match the scores of the 16" even though both had the full M3 Max chip. This is probably because of thermals and cooling performance (which you can see at 10:23). My question is, is then worth getting the full M3 Max chip in the 14" if it is likely to throttle sooner and not reach the performance scores when in the 16"?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0sVCUWJ6VU
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Well, I feel you still haven't really expressed what you need in a computer to really say what is worth it or not.

But I would also tell you, that I'd pick the machine based on your use case. I have a maxed out 14" M1 Max (32-core, 64GB), which also has "the same issue" of not performing as well vs the 16" vs thermals. However that is also application dependent. For me it comes down to wanting the performance in as compact a machine as possible. As I travel internationally at minimum once per year and my goal is to be location independent within the next few years. In other words, I use my laptop as a laptop and the 14" MBP is my "dream machine"; the machine I wish existed over 10 years ago. I was "forced" to always use Apple's 15.4" laptops before because there wasn't another option (the 13" machines never had good GPU's and were limited on core counts). The 14" MBP is the same size as their previous 13.3" MBP but with the displays pushed out on the bezels. In other words the same physical dimensions, much like the 16" is the same size roughly as the older 15.4".

tl;dr - Anyway, the purpose of that long ramble is I know why I'm buying the machine I'm buying. Knowing why you're buying what you're buying is way more useful than any of us telling you you should get a particular machine or not. I ignored all the reviewers that said, "save $300, get the 16" 24-core, it performs the same". As both I knew that wasn't true all of the time and it also didn't serve my use case. I can't make a 16" machine smaller, so it didn't matter to me. Am I leaving some performance on the table? Perhaps, but I'm also leaving a pound on the table too that I'm not carrying everywhere for a machine that decimates all my editing work flows and fits comfortably on an airplane tray table.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Well, I feel you still haven't really expressed what you need in a computer to really say what is worth it or not.

But I would also tell you, that I'd pick the machine based on your use case. I have a maxed out 14" M1 Max (32-core, 64GB), which also has "the same issue" of not performing as well vs the 16" vs thermals. However that is also application dependent. For me it comes down to wanting the performance in as compact a machine as possible. As I travel internationally at minimum once per year and my goal is to be location independent within the next few years. In other words, I use my laptop as a laptop and the 14" MBP is my "dream machine"; the machine I wish existed over 10 years ago. I was "forced" to always use Apple's 15.4" laptops before because there wasn't another option (the 13" machines never had good GPU's and were limited on core counts). The 14" MBP is the same size as their previous 13.3" MBP but with the displays pushed out on the bezels. In other words the same physical dimensions, much like the 16" is the same size roughly as the older 15.4".

tl;dr - Anyway, the purpose of that long ramble is I know why I'm buying the machine I'm buying. Knowing why you're buying what you're buying is way more useful than any of us telling you you should get a particular machine or not. I ignored all the reviewers that said, "save $300, get the 16" 24-core, it performs the same". As both I knew that wasn't true all of the time and it also didn't serve my use case. I can't make a 16" machine smaller, so it didn't matter to me. Am I leaving some performance on the table? Perhaps, but I'm also leaving a pound on the table too that I'm not carrying everywhere for a machine that decimates all my editing work flows and fits comfortably on an airplane tray table.
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Do you game on your 14" M1 Max? If yes, what games and how is the performance? Are they Apple silicon native games?
 
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Do you game on your 14" M1 Max? If yes, what games and how is the performance? Are they Apple silicon native games?
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We've kind of been over this already earlier in the thread. You asked at that time too.

I'll tell you two things: I wouldn't buy a Mac if I had any expectation of playing non-Mac games, and if gaming was a major interest of mine. Or perhaps, I wouldn't depend on that machine for doing lots of gaming, just occasional gaming. And I would use a PC for that purpose.

The second part is, yes. I do game on Mac. I've played D3 from beta to near present all on Mac. As well as various other Blizzard and games on Steam and GoG. Up until this point it's been exclusively games that have had a macOS port. Which believe it or not have been fairly extensive. Games like DX:MD and DX:HR. I played Divinity Original Sin: 2, one of the games I consider to be the best of all time also on Mac. The types of games I want to play are generally speaking single player, story driven, RPG's. I just got Tyranny, and I'm looking forward to playing that on macOS (it was on sale and it's my kind of game).

I also did install Crossover and I'm playing CP2077 on my Mac. Is it the greatest experience, do I recommend it? Well, it works surprisingly well. But it also can't be modded by any of the NexusMods stuff (to get better visuals or even edit save game files etc). And CP2077 I would consider a game worth my time and worth playing. I personally feel few games are as I'm incredibly selective and picky. It's also a game I'll never see RT or path tracing on on this machine.

In the future I plan on getting a 7945HX/x3D ITX system from Minisforum (they haven't released it yet), and then whatever graphics card is reasonable to go with it to do gaming on. And that's what I intend to casually game on instead. Again, I know why I'm buying what I'm buying and for what purpose. I love my Macs but even I'll tell you if you're serious at all about gaming they work in a pinch, but they're sub-optimal if there isn't a direct Mac port. Or if the game you want to play doesn't exist in some form on the system.
 
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